The transcription below is from the film made and shown in Oxford, UK in 2006.
Mordechai Vanunu - the Israeli prisoner of conscience who told the world about the Israeli nuclear weapon facility in the Negev Desert in Demona - still today remains under control by the Israeli authorities, have never given him true freedom, despite him already having served a prison sentence for almost 20 years, as a result of his conscious leading him to tell the world that Israel held nuclear weapons, even though this is a requirement by the IAEA, (International Atomic Energy Agency) for nuclear weapons to be reported in international law.
In February 2006, Vanunu was under house arrest staying within St. George's monastery in East Jerusalem, where he talked to me about the threats being made by Israel against Iran, that Israel was already beginning to make, already at that time.
In this interview, Vanunu displays the hypocricy of the Israeli state, the only state that is not governed by international laws, including conventions on human rights, still to this day failing to respect the international Geneva conventions on war crimes, continuing to commit atrocities, war crimes, and environmental disasters as part of its strategy of 'war' on the region from the start of its inception as a Zionist state.
As an Israeli of conscience, Vanunu alongside other Jewish dissidents against the Zionist state, including world reknowned analysts and professors, Naom Chomsky, Illan Pappe, Tanya Reinhart, and Norman Finkelstein, represents an important voice to show that not all 'Israelis' or 'Jews' support the human rights abuses against the Palestinian people, regardless of their religion. As a former Jewish Israeli, who converted to Christianity in opposition to the war crimes and atrocities of the 'Jewish state' who feels that he has continued to be targetted by them as a result of his change of religious views - Vanunu represents a demonstration of the hypocricy of the state that claims to be a 'democracy' when in fact, when he has personally shown the 'truth' according to international laws, it has instead been simply suppressed.
Even though the interview transcribed below was taken in 2006 - the points that Vanunu makes in relation to the elections of Hamas and of the statements made by Israel against Iran continue to be relevant today.
Please see here for updates on Mordechai, Sept 2010:
http://johntyrrell.co.uk/2010/09/update-on-mordechai-vanunu/
He has recently been released from prison after he was recently detained for 'talking to foreign journalists' and now he has been able to leave Jerusalem for the first time in decades and now for the first time, he is able to taste the first foot-steps of freedom, living now by the sea in Tel Aviv.
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Transcribed and edited from the film version which was shown in Oxford, 2006.
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- So Mordechai.
- Yes.
- Tell me about yourself. Where are we now, and what’s your experience?
- We are at Saint George’s Cathedral guest-house in East Jerusalem. I am Mordechai Vanunu who spent 18 years in prison for revealing Israel’s nuclear secrets in 1986, and I was released in 2004. A lot of the people in England know about my case, because my story was established there, and started there in 1986. The Sunday Times of London published the Israeli nuclear secrets as I gave them in 1986. During my 18 years in prison, people from England were following my case. There was a big campaign for my release for 18 years, even though it didn’t help or succeed to secure my release any earlier, and even now after 18 years, I am not allowed to leave the country. But still my case is very popular there, and followed by all the English media, the BBC news, TV, radio and the newspapers. I gave a lot of interviews to many newspapers, and I am meeting all the time groups who are coming here to visit East Jerusalem, Palestine. I am talking, and telling them the story and I hope when I’ll be free and allowed to leave the country, I’ll go there first to start my freedom.
- You hope to come to England.
- Yes.
- I wish you the chance to come to England. You told me you have a court case coming up.
- Yes.
- On Thursday.
- Yes, the situation is, now since my return, I am not allowed to speak to foreign media, but instead, I’m speaking and giving interviews. So one year ago they arrested me, and questioned me about these interviews, and now I’m facing trial in court. It started 2 weeks ago. The police are proving to the court that I am speaking to foreign media, and they brought 21 charges of interviews to many newspapers all over the world. That is what started 2 weeks ago and will continue on Thursday, the police will continue to prove to the court, evidence that I am speaking to foreign media.
- Can you tell me why do you think it’s important for you to talk to people about Israel’s nuclear weapons?
- My issue is that I am a free human being, I have the right to speak, and I can not follow this order not to speak to foreign media, not to speak to foreigners. If any human being wants to hear my voice, or hear my view, I am talking. I just exercise my freedom of speech. I don’t want to claim I’m a spy or I’m under orders. They punished me, they sentenced me, now I have the right to speak. So I continue to insist on my rights as a human being to express my views. That’s what I am doing.
- What was it that caused you, that made you want to talk to the world in the first place?
- I was working in Israel in a nuclear weapons factory for 9 years and I knew what was being produced there. My job was to produce nuclear material for plutonium bombs, and materials for hydrogen bombs. That was my job for 9 years. I came to the conclusion that they can make every year 10 bombs. When I came to London, it was proved by scientists that they have more than 200 atomic weapons. All this was going on, while the state was denying that they are in possession of atomic weapons. So I felt my obligation is to come to the world and reveal, tell the truth, and try to stop this nuclear proliferation, and the danger of nuclear war in the Middle-East.
- So how do you see that relating to the issue with Iran at the moment for example?
- What happened, is that my information came to the world, and it was published. All the world received it, but no-one, or any state did anything publicly with Israel. But yet everyone knows and is very clear and confident that Israel has more than 200 atomic weapons. Now the world is coming to Iraq and Iran, especially this week to Iran, but everyone knows that the real place where the atomic weapons are, is Israel. So even if no-one mentions Israel or says anything about Israel, just by talking about Iran, everyone knows that the truth is that in the Middle-East the only state where they have the atomic weapon is Israel. So the decision of the United Nations 2 days ago was that they will deal with Iran, but also they want the Middle-East to be free from nuclear weapons. So it means, they want Israel also to release its nuclear weapons. So we will see how this will develop.
- But you were telling me that Israel still refuses to admit this.
- Yes. Israel still continues to deny it officially. They declare that they don’t have atomic weapons. But it’s very well known that Israel is a nuclear weapon state, and also just by mentioning my name, or seeing my photo or interviewing me, everyone knows what I said, so I became the man who is the proof that Israel has nuclear weapons. So even if Israel denies it, just by not letting me meet, or speak [with journalists], everyone realises that Israel is hiding and lying about its nuclear weapons.
- How do you see it in the context of the situation in Israel at the moment? How do you see that? How do you see Israel’s own position in the Middle-East?
- The situation is that Israel becomes a super-power by these atomic weapons. [There are at least] 200 atomic weapons, including the Hydrogen bomb. Israel is using these weapons as an excuse to do what they want, [so] they continue to hold conflict with Arab and Palestinians. Because they feel themselves so strong, and so powerful, they allow themselves to occupy Palestinian territories, not to make real peace, not to solve the refugee problems, and even allow themselves now to build the wall and check-points and not to let Palestinians establish their own state. So the situation is that Israel is ignoring the pressure from abroad, because they feel they are very powerful like a super-power, with these atomic weapons. So if the world could succeed to deal with Israeli atomic weapons, it could be the beginning of real peace in the Middle-East.
- So how do you see the future for example after the elections we’ve just had, with Hamas winning, how do you see that. Do you see it as confrontational or do you see it as something, we need to allow it an opportunity to develop?
- About this Hamas election. I think it is [the] Israelis who in fact want[ed] this situation with Hamas. It was Israel who was fighting Arafat and Fatah and destroyed them, they didn’t let them succeed. They didn’t let the Oslo agreement become real. So that means that Israel from one side is fighting Fatah and Arafat, from the other side encouraging the Hamas. The result is that Hamas succeeded in the election. But in Israel’s mind, I think they want the world to see Palestinians as Islamic Extremist people, and Fundamentalist terrorists, and that will make them not respected or helped by any other state. So Israel destroyed Arafat and Fatah and hoped to make the Palestinians very extreme by Hamas, and that way [it] will justify [for them] not to make peace with the Palestinians, not to give them anything. It will justify the wall. So now comes this conflict from Denmark, publishing this cartoon, it is enflaming all the Middle-East. It also continued this idea of giving the world the image of Palestinians as extreme Muslims and it will justify what Israel is doing to them. But I think it will not help the Palestinians who continue to demand their rights, and I think that Hamas also, the leaders will make effort to support non-violence and they will insist on their right and Israel will have to deal with Hamas. They will not, they can not run away from the real negotiations with the Palestinians.
- You yourself you converted to Christianity, you told me it was actually before you went to prison. Was that after you’d gone to London?
- What happened was, after working 9 years in the Demona Nuclear Laboratory, and becoming political, I was always going there, I decided I wanted to leave the country. So in 1986, I decided to start a new life, to leave Israel and to live somewhere else in the world. I was on my way to United States and stopped in Australia, and I decided part of my new life is that I wanted to convert to Christianity and abandon Judaism. So I converted in Sydney, Australia. But then we start the story of Nuclear weapons in Israel, and that brought me back to Israel, with the kidnapping in Rome, and then spending 18 years [in prison]. So my conversion was a long process, from a young age, until reaching the age of 42 in Australia.
- So why did you choose to convert, what was the main reason?
- The main reason was I rejected Judaism, I criticised Judaism, I didn’t accept this Jewish faith. Also I rejected the use of Jewish faith, Judaism in the political issue, in the name of the Jewish faith, with the Israelis coming now, and taking the Palestinian land, occupying the territories. They are not respecting the non-Jewish people. As for my case, I suffered a lot. I was 18 years in prison. 10 years isolation just because I converted to Christianity. Israelis can not accept someone who is not Jewish. For this reason I decided Israel is not my state, Israel is an Apartheid State. It’s a Jewish state for the Jews. If you are not Jewish you don’t have equal rights. If you are Palestinian or Christian you don’t have equal rights.
- So this is why you are choosing now to stay in Eastern Jerusalem.
- Yes I am choosing to live in this place because I don’t want to live among Israelis or Jewish state, and also because I want to leave this country to have real freedom.
- You must have Israeli people who come to visit you as well?
- A few Israeli are supporting me from the left. But many are still Zionist, so even if they are against occupation, some of them are even against nuclear weapons but the majority, even from the left, are still supporting the Jewish state.
- So why do you think people feel like that? So why do you think that they still want to be Zionist?
- Because these Israelis still believe in Judaism, even if they are secular, they still believe in the Jewish history, so they are raised and taught to believe in a Jewish state. But I think that in this modern age, if they want a democracy state, they should follow the democracy standard constitution and respect every human being. They can not have a Jewish State. A Jewish state is a Racist Apartheid State. They should have democracy for all the people, by all the people. That’s what Israelis should understand and follow.
- Something I learnt recently was the fact that Judaism actually comes from the state of Judah, and what they call the 12 tribes of Israel was actually from tribes that dispersed through-out the world, so actually technically, the state of Israel should be a place for all people of all nations.
- Yes but the Jewish who come back here are those who believe in the Old Testament. They believe they are part of, they are continuing to be the tribes of 2,000 years ago. But I thought that maybe they should learn if they want to come back here, they should make it for all the people and for the people who live here, who are the Palestinians.
- Do you feel like they’re not acknowledging history, since how many years is it, 3,000 years?
- Yes, but they acknowledge it by saying it is exactly what is written in the bible, it is a Jewish state of Judah and or the tribe, and they say they are following the faith and the orders of this Old Testament. It is not what you are saying because it is 12 tribes dispersed, disappeared, spread all over and come back and then it is all the nations. They have here many people from all over the world, but as long as they are Jews accepting Jewish faith, they can be Israelis. So people come from Russia they have full citizens, or they can come from Ethiopia, just because they declare they are Jewish. Why are the people who are here, the Palestinians, because they don’t accept Judaism, they are not accepted as equal people? So, [with] the people here in Israel it is about faith, if you declare you are Jewish, no matter where you come from, you can come from South Africa, you can come from Brazil. But if you declare you are not Jewish, even if you live here, like me, or Palestinian, you don’t have rights.
- Do you feel that there are some people who abuse that, for example, in order to get citizenship?
- Of course, you hear about the Russians who come here, they just use the system to leave their Russian economy. But it doesn’t matter, the situation is very bad, and these Israelis are still controlled and guided by the Jewish people and the Jewish agenda. They use anything they can. They’ve got Russians, they’ve got Ethiopians, and they receive all the American support. All to fight and to keep this Jewish state alive and working.
- Why do you think that America gives such a lot of support to Israel?
- The Americans are people who came to support the Jewish people because they know in the United States the Jewish are equal to every American citizen and developed and modern and educated. So the Americans think they are supporting a society that is a democratic modern Jewish state. So these Israelis are cheating the Americans by letting them see that Israel is a very modern state like the American model, and the same time portraying the Palestinians and Arabs as under-developed primitive people. So that is the excuse for the United States to support the Israeli State. They are sending support because they believe Israel is having the same values and standards as America. But now the Americans can see Israel is not a real democracy like United States because in the United States even the black or Hispanic have equal rights. Even the Palestinian they don’t have equal rights. So one day the Americans will wake up and see that Israel is cheating them, and they should demand for Israel to establish a real democracy.
- So in one way you can say, maybe it’s ironic, that now the Palestinians have had the elections and they were very democratic, and now they are saying that they won’t recognise them, and that there are problems recognising Hamas, and different countries are now threatening to say that they will pull out funding.
- Yes but I think the world will see soon that the Hamas government’s leaders are following the democracy system and they are working and trying to support their state and their people and the Hamas leaders will demand peace negotiation. They will see that they should give the choice for the Palestinians to have their own government and they should give freedom to the Hamas leaders or anyone who was elected by the Palestinian people. So it depends on what Hamas will do in the next month, how they will behave.
- What would you like to see in an ideal world from the Israeli government and from the Jewish people?
What I want is that the Israeli State should understand that if they want a state, they should make a state like every state. They should not come and make their own state. They can not have their own system as a Jewish state. The religious state does not exist in the modern world. The Jewish State was 2000 years ago in Biblical times. In this age we have the democracy system in the United States, in Europe, all over the world. This is what the Israeli people should follow, it means that they should become a secular state, not a Jewish state. The Jewish can practice whatever they want in their home, in their society. But secular people should govern the State and the people should be respected, Palestinian or Christian or Jewish or Muslim, the same, so they should all be respected totally. So I want or I wish it will happen soon, Israel will become a secular state, and that is the end. It doesn’t matter one state, 2 state, it does matter what constitution this state will have.
- The other question I want to ask as well is, when you presented the information in London, did you go and see a specialist about nuclear weapons, or did you go to the UN.
- I didn’t need to, I knew, I worked in that place. The journalist, the newspaper brought a specialist in the nuclear field. He knew. And they heard me, they questioned me, they came to the conclusion what I said was true, and they published it.
- Thank you.
Mordechai Vanunu interviewed February 2006
Filmed by Juliet Jae
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